Without the due measure or mean there would be no arts at all, he now says (neither statecraft nor weaving-- proving that measure is not just "an" art after all. SOCRATES: I owe you many thanks, indeed, Theodorus, for the acquaintance both of Theaetetus and of the Stranger. Now at 286B the Stranger returns from his prophylactic digression with the comment that what had spawned it was impatience with their discussion, and he recalls that they had been impatient before with their myth. The Stranger again expresses his dissatisfaction. The Stranger even goes so far as to suggest that the true ruler is free to do anything -- even put people to death -- as long as he does it according to the political art. [We must look for clues that help us understand the difference Plato sees between true classes and false conglomerations, between accurate and inaccurate or overhasty divisions]. 264B-267C�SECOND SET OF DIVISIONS [SYNOPSIS OF DIVISIONS SO FAR AT 267B-C], 268E-274E�THE MYTH OF THE REVERSED COSMOS (OR THE MYTH OF THE AGE OF CHRONUS), 274E-277C�CRITICAL REMARKS [FIXING UP THE DIVISIONS: FROM HERD-NURTURE TO HERD-KEEPING; ENFORCED RULE VS. The Hague: Nijhoff, 1980. Morrison, J. S. �The Origins of Plato�s Philosopher-Statesman� in Classical Quarterly, n.s. Now they are finally ready to use weaving as an example to display qualities of the statesman's craft. In the age in which we actually live, the age of Zeus in which the universe moves by itself, not steered by god, all of the hard parts of life come back, and that has an influence upon political life and upon the art of the statesman. The Daimon departs and without its care we are weak and helpless, threatened by wild beasts; we lacked all tools and crafts. That influence has much to do with what was wrong with our previous definition]. Rowe, Christopher, ed. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1998. This leads eventually to a final caveat, but first the Stranger completes his point about the nature of the ideal case. [See Kenneth Dorter, Form and Good in Plato's Eleatic Dialogues].The Statesman should also be compared to Plato… He once again complains about their having botched the job by rushing too much. McCabe, Mary Margaret. This self-preference indicates that bias based on point of view is a main obstacle to objective divisions. Sengupta, Sunita Singh What does the statesman weave, with what kinds of fabric? The ideas in the Statesman about relative measure vs. due measure could be related to the 'science of measure' idea discussed in the Protagoras and perhaps connected to the difference between the principles of the Limit and the Unlimited in the Philebus; and the idea of due measure should also be connected to the idea of a knowledge of the Good discussed in the Republic and implied in the idea of the 'true arts' in the Gorgias. Method and Politics in Plato�s Statesman. Summary General Summary Gorgias is a detailed study of virtue founded upon an inquiry into the nature of rhetoric, art, power, temperance, justice, and good versus evil. He claims to be giving the reunited tapestry of which many different mythic ideas once formed a part. The statesman decides when to use rhetoric to persuade the people of the truth, and the statesman decides whether to choose war or diplomacy and so rules over the general. That is how we are going to use weaving as an example -- as an example in words of something invisible but intelligible to reason -- the knowledge of the statesman. These true opinions are to be common convictions about values and standards. If the person doing it has political knowledge and the result really is beneficial, it would be right to engage in revolution. There is a widespread destruction of creatures -- only a small remnant of the human race survives (There are periodic destructions -- history is a cycle). If medical decisions had to be made by an assembly of nondoctors each casting their vote to produce a general law meant to cover all cases, it clearly would not work. He connects the difference between two kinds of "art" [ but the arts of relative measure are not really arts, apparently] to the problem about dividing things according to real kinds (at 285A-B). There are kinds of science which are unconcerned with action or production, yeilding only knowledge -- like mathematics. B. Plato�s Statesman. Sometimes this trilogy is grouped together with the Parmenides (to which both the Theaetetus and the Sophist seem to refer) as a group of 'Eleatic' dialogues. This argument discusses measure, excess and deficiency in the arts. This setting is crucially linked to the theme of the Laws. The principal subjects in the Statesman may be conveniently embraced under six or seven heads:—(1) the myth; (2) the dialectical interest; (3) the political aspects of the dialogue; (4) the satirical and paradoxical vein; (5) the necessary imperfection of law; (6) the relation of the work to the other writings of Plato; … Likewise, aristocracy is the lawful variety of rule by the few (true aristocracy is meant, not the well-born, but the best people in charge); but oligarchy is considered a lawless variety of rule by the few. Rowman and Littlefield, 2000. The Stranger also wants to know if the arts of the statesman, king, slavemaster, and householder are one; they answer yes. Plato now gives us a discussion of what we might call "hawks" and "doves": there are in any given city some highly-spirited, aggressive types who tend to be ready for war, and other less-spirited, peace-loving, meeker and more thoughtful types who tend to advocate diplomacy and compromise. In order to accomplish this, they will need to use examples. Nightingale, Andrea. [not knowledge-- that would be impossible for so many -- but true opinion. �Disorderly Motion in Plato's Statesman�. The statesman's art governs "walking herds". This foreshadows many explicit discussions in the Laws of the principle that power should be divided and balanced against other powers in a state to keep any power from becoming tyrannical. To send content items to your account, What we need to do is to become familiar with the letters in which the universe is spelled out --then we can learn to recognize the same elements when they recur in new and unfamiliar combinations. No, because they work for pay they can have no share in the art of ruling. The Stranger states the problem: how does one distinguish between a mere portion and true subdivision; but he defers its discussion. Search for Library Items Search for Lists Search for Contacts Search for a Library. Statesman By Plato Written 360 B.C.E Translated by Benjamin Jowett. People tend to favor policies akin to their own character. His example to show what an example is is the use of letters. �Constitutions, Virtues, and Philosophy in Plato�s Statesman and Republic.� Polity 13 (Spring 1981): 355-82. the statesman should take the best of each type and unite that element in them which is divine by a divine bond; and that divine bond is true opinion. Mara, Gerald. Lachterman, D. R. �Review of Klein, Jacob, Plato�s Trilogy,� in Nous 13 (1979): 106-12. �Justice and Method in the Statesman� in Justice, Law, and Method in Plato and Aristotle, ed. Tejera, V. �The Politics of a Sophistic Rhetorician� in Philosophy and Social Criticism 5, no.1 (1978): 1-26. This is the origin of the traditions about a golden age. Plato's father, Ariston, descended from the kings of Athens and Messenia. THEODORUS: And in a little while, Socrates, you will owe me three �Politike Episteme in Plato�s Statesman.� In Anton and Preus, eds., Essays in Ancient Greek Philosophy III, SUNY 1989, 147-67. We also have to make a distinction between voluntary and involuntary rearing of herds; tendance of herds by violent control is the tyrant's art, whereas tendance of herds of free bipeds freely accepted by the herds is the statesman's art. Childbirth begins again -- now both people and the universe have to move by their own motions, so creatures have to produce and rear their own young. This data will be updated every 24 hours. We can use examples when a factor identical with a factor in a less known object is rightly believed to exist is a better known object; the better known object is then an example illustrating a point about a less known object. Yet this definition has the same problem as our former definiton of the statesman; for we haven't distinguished it from rival and related arts. on the Manage Your Content and Devices page of your Amazon account. In commerce, maybe? Dorter, Kenneth. To see the ideal the Stranger asks us to imagine a case in which, owing to fear of harm by practitioners of art like doctors or navigators, we decided to make all technical decisions within these arts by law. Another kind of knowledge aims toward an end, provides knowledge and commands others to carry out instructions (like a master builder). But none of these are true politeia (constitutions), because the one factor that matters has been overlooked: do any of the rulers possess competence to rule, the political science or art? Chicago, 1984. The Statesman should also be compared to Plato's two main other political dialogues, the Republic and the Laws. Along the way a bizarre myth is told about the cyclical history of the universe, and how, when the universe changes the direction of its spinning, time runs backwards. Sankt Augusin: Academia Verlag, 1995. The Statesman is Plato's neglected political work, but it is crucial for an understanding of the development of his political thinking. These digressions give rise to, but are also meant to purge us of, our impatience. Phoenix, 35,199-215, Fall 81. �Plato, Statesman 284c-D: An �Argument from the Sciences�� Phronesis 22: 232-234, 1977. Tejera, V. �Plato�s Politikos: an Eleatic Sophist on Politics� in Philosophy and Social Criticism 5, no.2 (1978): 108-25. The main problem with law is that it is too general, and rigid by nature, not adaptable to individual circumstances, like technical knowledge is. Od. Statesman Relationships. In particular, we failed to mention that the statesman is concerned with soul as well as with body, or even more so than body. The statesman is slowly and tediously classified and defined. Together with divine bonds, there should also be human bonds; people of the one type should forget their personal tastes and marry someone of the other type. The best cities owe their preservation to a rule which although less than ideal is yet desirable in fact: the rule of law. These three men are walking the path that Minos (a legendary lawgiver of Crete) and his father followed every nine years to receive the guidance of Zeus. On true opinion as divinely dispensed, cf. Find out more about sending content to . So they begin to divide the forms of knowledge, the arts (technai, crafts). If the rulers have the true craft of ruling, says the Stranger, it does not matter at all whether they rule by law or lawlessly, by consent or with violence. Hide browse bar Your current position in the text is marked in blue. Review: November 2004 Plato's most disturbing political dialogue This book, the culmination of Benardete's masterful translation of what Jacob Klein was pleased to call `Plato's Trilogy,' includes not only a translation of `The Statesman' but also a superb commentary with notes. Yale University Press, 1995. Now he continues with a process of elimination to distinguish other groups who might be thought to vie with the statesman for the art of rule. The first mistake is that we treated the king as though he were the Daimon of the former era, a god not a mortal; but we cannot use a god for a model, because in our era we can only be ruled by humans. Now we can finally see what that strange group that vied with the statesman for the claim to rule, that group that appeared to be wizards and sophists, truly was: they were the real life political leaders, party leaders, who pretend to be able to rule, but are only pursuing their own interests. But in no time or place could there ever be a very large number of people with the true art of statesmanship (Cf. But the Stranger's successive efforts to … The royal science is a science of herd nuture. 278e, 283c–287c (where 285a–b serves as a compact summary of the method so far). The dialogue is set on the Greek island of Crete in the 4th century B.C.E. In the Statesman, the Eleatic Stranger and a young boy named Socrates (not our Socrates, who is a bystander in this dialogue) discuss the problem of the nature of the political art and of its true practitioner. The scholarly apparatus is immense and detailed. Plato and Aristotle often connect justice with wholeness. The above scheme should be contrasted with the typology of the Republic; in the Republic oligarchy is higher than democracy. The Laws comprises a conversation in 12 books, set onCrete, among three interlocutors: an unnamed Athenian Visitor(Plato’s spokesman in the Laws), Megillus, a Spartan,and Kleinias, a Cretan. His mother, Perictione, is said to be related to the 6th century B.C.E. Studies in Platonic Anonymity. As such, the dialogue both maintains independent significance and relates closely to Plato's overarching philosophical project of defining noble and proper … The first two books of the dialogue consider the proper goal orend (telos) of legislat… the Protagoras), they class the statesman among those have knowledge (art or techne here suggests knowledge, expertise). He overcame Socrates' objection to thought frozen in writing by using the dialogue (dialogos) format, never overtly stating views in his own name. This dialogue is the sequel to the Sophist, completing the trilogy that began with the Theaetetus. To protect them from doubts about the value of their current digression, the Athenian says he wants to administer a "prophylatic argument" and begins another digression, a digression within a digression! [See Kenneth Dorter, Form and Good in Plato's Eleatic Dialogues]. Everything begins to age backwards; people who are dead and decayed spring from the earth, first as old people and then grow younger [This is where the stories of an earthborn race come from]. the Meno]. He acts as though there were a single art of measurement at first and tries to divide it. The Sophist and Statesman are late Platonic dialogues, whose relative dates are established by their stylistic similarity to the Laws, a work that was apparently still “on the wax” at the time of Plato’s death (Diogenes Laertius 3.37).These dialogues are important in exhibiting Plato’s views on method and … The Sophist (Greek: Σοφιστής; Latin: Sophista) is a Platonic dialogue from the philosopher's late period, most likely written in 360 BC. But what kind of theoretical knowledge is it? Fruits came without cultivation; the grass was soft enough to use as beds; people needed no shelter. There are two kinds of servants -- slaves who are bought and sold and those who are personally free but who sell their services for money -- merchants, retailers, vendors, money changers. Now they once again raise the question of the tedium and apparent pointlessness of all this dividing [Remember this is all supposed to be the elaboration of an example]. Theodorus. �Plato�s Statesman: Unity and Pluralism� in New Scholasticism 37 (1963): 28-43. WorldCat Home About WorldCat Help. Recommended translation: "Sophist" in The Being of the Beautiful: Plato's Theaetetus, Sophist, and Statesman, trans. Kato, Shinro. the statements in the Seventh Letter about revolution; one of the problems with it is that even if you knew what you were doing, it would be impossible to have enough of the right kind of people to help you). Book One of Aristotle's Politics for his emphatic disagreement with Plato on this point). Vidal- Naquet, P. �Plato's Myth of The Statesman, The Ambiquities of The Golden Age and of History,� Journal of Hellenic Studies, 98, 132-141, 1978. Examples are kind of like analogies in this way. arts that produce carriages (containers). Miller Jr, Mitchell H. The Philosopher in Plato's Statesman. University of California Press, 1994. But in the real world the ruler is merely human, and so is imperfect, subject to all the ills of human life that condition our political existence. Benardete, Seth. Next a motley crew -- like wizards and sophists, but who is the group really? From merchants, teachers, farmers, doctors -- all of whom could claim to care for these same animals? [WITH AN ART THAT USES OTHER ARTS], NOR IS HE THE GENERAL, THE RHETORICIAN NOR THE JUDGE [BUT HE MUST KNOW HOW TO GUIDE THEM�KNOWING WHEN THEIR ARTS SHOULD BE EMPLOYED], OBSERVING DUE MEASURE IN ALL OF THIS [IT IS SAID AT 284A-E THAT ALL THE ARTS, INCLUDING THAT OF THE STATESMAN, DEPEND FOR THEIR EXISTENCE UPON DUE MEASURE], WEAVING TOGETHER THE MODERATE AND COURAGEOUS CITIZENS WITH THE DIVINE BOND (OF TRUE OPINION ABOUT THE GOOD) AND THE HUMAN BOND (OF ENCOURAGING THE RIGHT KINDS OF MARRIAGES), USING LAWS AS IMITATIONS OF THE TRUTH (ALTHOUGH HIS KNOWLEDGE, THE SOURCE OF GOOD LAWS, IS SUPERIOR TO LAW AND NOT CONSTRAINED BY IT), AND DOING ALL THIS WITH A VIEW TO THE HAPPINESS OF THE WHOLE CITY [311C]. 229–232. The universe begins to forget the instructions it received from god, and it begins to degenerate toward the ancient condition of chaos (a kind of Platonic entropy). Christopher Gill and Mary Margaret McCabe, 153-78. �Plato on the Origin of Evil: The Statesman Myth Reconsidered.� Ancient Philosophy 16 (1996): 65-83. They divide arts into arts that do something and arts that prevent something being done; preventive arts into charms and protections; protections into military and nonmilitary; nonmilitary into screens and protections from storm and heat; the latter into houses and shields for persons; the latter into blankets and garments; garments into one piece and compounded of many pieces; compounded into those stitched and those made by another method; this last into those made of vegetable fibers and those made of animal hair; finally, those made of hair combined by their inherent substance. Shorey, Paul. There is an era in which God moves the universe in one direction (winding it up, as it were) and another age in which he lets it go, and it begins to spin in the reverse direction. (Cf. In its presentation of the statesman's expertise, The Statesman modifies, as well as defending in original ways, this central theme of the Republic. Plato�s Statesman: The Web of Politics. They take as their example the art of weaving woolens. Then at 294A the Stranger indicates that he intends to question the boy Socrates to see if he really accepts that a good ruler can govern without laws. Each of these two character types has its political benefits and drawbacks; one major drawback is just their tendency to come into conflict. Three elderly men are walking from Cnossos to the sacred cave and sanctuary of Zeus located on Mount Ida. Next come soothsayers, interpreters of the gods to men. The philosopher in Plato's Statesman. For the Eleatic Stranger is going to qualify his claims about lawless rule). When we use letters in words we know to help us identify letters in unknown words, this is like the use of examples. 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